which is more treif of the two scenarios?

[Frombklyn]

For calling yourself Yeshivish you have some very liberal Hashkafos.

That has nothing to do with the issue. Yeshivish should not mean left or right wing. It should mean upholding the Torah and the Halachos. It means learning Torah when you can and ascribing yourself to a Yeshiva and accepting the Torah to be learned in that kind of beautiful way.

BH my Rabbis do not believe in blindly telling people what to do without explaining to them. Nor do they believe they have the right to put their own emotions or opinion ahead of what the halacha says.

If that's liberal, then label us that.

[Guest]

For calling yourself Yeshivish you have some very liberal Hashkafos.

That has nothing to do with the issue. Yeshivish should not mean left or right wing. It should mean upholding the Torah and the Halachos. It means learning Torah when you can and ascribing yourself to a Yeshiva and accepting the Torah to be learned in that kind of beautiful way.

BH my Rabbis do not believe in blindly telling people what to do without explaining to them. Nor do they believe they have the right to put their own emotions or opinion ahead of what the halacha says.

If that's liberal, then label us that.

You are hearby labelled
What age group do you belong to? Do you believe there is something called modern yeshivish?

[Frombklyn]

Do you believe there is something called modern yeshivish?

No, there are just two groups. One group believes in accepting of other Jews, not labeling others, not condemning others who are not like them, and actually learning about the halachas that affect their every day lives and not willing to be led blindly because someone told them 'because I said so'

Then you have the other group who is mostly or completely opposite of above.

It isn't modern at all to want to know why the halacha is like something. It is not modern at all to ask a Rav to not use his personal opinion for halacha instead of opening his books, using reference materials, and stating the halacha from halacha. Nor is it wrong to ask them why they are banning things now when R' Moshe Feinstein never did so, nor did any other great Gedolim in previous generations.

There was a great article in last weeks Jewish Press you should read, its about someone who has noticed that even the 'frummest and die hard' of Yeshivish Families are not starting to wonder what is going on due to the whole Concert Banning.

Judaism is not supposed to be a religion based upon banning things or telling people what they can't do blindly. There are only a rare few things that we are told we cannot do without knowing why. Why is it that we have to live today not knowing why certain opinions or chumras are held now?

[Telly]

No, there are just two groups. One group believes in accepting of other Jews, not labeling others, not condemning others who are not like them, and actually learning about the halachas that affect their every day lives and not willing to be led blindly because someone told them 'because I said so'

Then you have the other group who is mostly or completely opposite of above.

Interesting, sounds like you are saying that it is the yeshivish group that does not accept other Jews,labels others,condems others that are not like them and learns topics that are irrelivent to their every day lives and to top it off are "led blindly". Some major allegations here for someone who doesn't like those who don't accept others and is against labeling.

Can you substantiate any of your claims? As someone who has spent time o the Yeshiva side, I have found only the opposite to be true about them.

Judaism is not supposed to be a religion based upon banning things or telling people what they can't do blindly. There are only a rare few things that we are told we cannot do without knowing why. Why is it that we have to live today not knowing why certain opinions or chumras are held now?

I wasn't into the whole concert ban thing. But are you really telling me that if a concert goer wanted to know why a Rav was against it and asked that Rav he would answer him,"Judaism is a religion based upon banning things or telling people what they can't do blindly. So I said so and that it."

Thats amazing! And unlike any Rosh Yeshiva or Rav I have ever had contact with.

[Frombklyn]

Interesting, sounds like you are saying that it is the yeshivish group that does not accept other Jews,labels others,condems others that are not like them and learns topics that are irrelivent to their every day lives and to top it off are "led blindly". Some major allegations here for someone who doesn't like those who don't accept others and is against labeling.

We aren't labeling. We are making a statement based upon facts and we are limited to how society talks to one another and what phrases they use. In order to specify one segment of the population we have to call them something. We prefer to just say Jewish or Jew is a Jew.

Can you substantiate any of your claims? As someone who has spent time o the Yeshiva side, I have found only the opposite to be true about them.

I wasn't into the whole concert ban thing. But are you really telling me that if a concert goer wanted to know why a Rav was against it and asked that Rav he would answer him,"Judaism is a religion based upon banning things or telling people what they can't do blindly. So I said so and that it."

Thats amazing! And unlike any Rosh Yeshiva or Rav I have ever had contact with.

How can one substantiate any of these claims without causing someone to be embarrassed or to cause a fight between a Jew and another Jew?

We have personally seen and heard stories first hand of Jews being thrown out of a shul or a school because they didn't fit in with the crowd among the Yeshivish. We know personal stories of BTs and Gerim who were rejected because they don't have Yichus. We know of at least three posaks of the Generation in Flatbush that people ask shailahs of who do not answer questions of why the halacha is that when they give psaks. While they are busy they are unwilling to even just state where they are referencing themselves from.

Let us make ourselves clear. We know many B"H many many Yeshivish people who are not like above. These people happen to be more into kiruv or have a background which they realize that they should not go ahead and pretend that they were always Yeshivish or they are better than their fellows.

Are we saying all of the Ravs and people in the Yeshivish world are like this? No. However many of the leaders are being exactly like above. Look at Lakewood. Look at the elite schools in Flatbush. Go ask the Ravs of Shuls why the Boro Park Eruv is Kosher for Yeshivish to use but not the one in Flatbush that does not cross Ocean Parkway is not kosher (there are currently 5 eruvs within Brooklyn btw). We have a friend who Rav told him every eruv in Brooklyn isn't kosher because of R' Moshe Feinstein...even though our friend knows that R' Moshe Feinstein's objection was concerning Ocean Parkway he has to listen to this Rav because he made a psak - even if it was made upon questionable references.

B"H the entire Yeshivish World is not like that. If it was there were be more than grumblings happening in Flatbush and the other strongholds. However one does need to realize in this day of age that our leaders are completely throwing aside what the previous generations have established. The bugs in the water were asked in the previous generations and were mutared. As was the Indian Hair. As was Concerts. As were even weddings with mixed seating (not that we object to that one but out of town weddings are so much nicer because of it).

We are critical because we care, not because we wish to point fingers and blame and crucify anyone.

If everyone who had a real objection to how the Jewish People are led right now would stand up and shout outloud that we need to have change and we need to be led upon halacha and not the opinions of the Ravs.

[bk to lakewood]

we need to have change and we need to be led upon halacha and not the opinions of the Ravs.

I love this quote - it is so true. We are not in the times of Mashiach. We do not have a Jewish Melech. We do not have the 3rd Beit Hamikdash! WE ARE IN GALUT PEOPLE! And while we are supposed to make for ourselves a rav, this has just gone too far. What makes us unique from other religions is that we dont just follow what some leader who came to be says rather we LEARN FOR OURSELVES!!!!!!!

i am from brooklyn (ocean parkway area) and moved to lakewood after getting married. i was quite happy and satisfied with my community in brooklyn, so i didnt have much experience with the other many communities out there.
however now that i am living in lakewood i have a taste of what is going on these days between all the different "groups" even within "yeshivish" and i think it is just SAD! far too many families are doing things blindly (with regards to halachic issues), and then when they see others not doing as they are, they automatically shun them!*

since when have we as a jewish ppl become like this?! wouldnt you all agree that our existance has been based on our learning of halacha and keeping of traditions, (with Hashem's help of course)!

The ONLY thing we should be doing with blind faith is trusting in Hashem. Everything else is our duty as Jews to learn and understand and teach our sons the right way. Our job is not to judge and label other jews out there - that is Hashem's job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am so sick and disgusted by the jews out there trying to play G-d!

We should be using this pesach season to be deflating our egos just as we deflate our bread into matzah.

May we all merit in the coming of Mashiach this Pesach and join together in Yerushalim under ONE leadership that goes by Hashem's laws.

*[I am in no way saying that Lakewood is worse than Brooklyn or that either of them are "bad" chas v'shalom. I enjoy living in lakewood very much B"H and there are some incredible people here. I am just saying that I really noticed this "phenomenon" once I moved to Lakewood, but I am sure thes days it exists everywhere]

[Guest]

Many people ejaculated (so to speak) their opinions in these posts, but no one provided any reference as to why masturbation would be permitted when done in the presence of one's spouse, even if done only occasionally. Does the rav who supposedly permitted this limit his heiter to situations wherein each person masturbated the other, or even to one spouse merely being present? It seems like a tremendous heiter, in more ways than one.

[anuran]

In "Through the Looking Glass and What Alice Found There" Alice meets Tweedledum and Tweedledee who recite the poem about the Walrus and the Carpenter who betray and eat a group of naive oysters. They debate who was worse, the Walrus who ate more or the Carpenter who ate as many as he could.

Here as there Alice has the right of it "I think they were both horrid."

[emeslyaakov]

[quote="Guest"][quote="must know"]negiah with a niddah of nothing farther than a kiss and hug while fully clothed, or heavy-duty phone sex where the guy reaches orgasm by self-contact with the assistance of his phone partner-no negiah?[/quote]

Would any consideration be given to those people impacted by these actions? If a man hugs and kisses his wife while she's niddah is wrong to some people. But how can that be just as, or more wrong, than a man calling a stranger so he can bring himself to orgasm? (I'm assuming its a phone sex line, or not a spouse).

To me, it's like this. It's wrong to eat at McDonalds because it is not kosher, even if the cheeseburgers are tasty. Eating one would feel good while I did it, but I would regret it later, after thinking about it. But that misdeed is between me and Hashem and if I did teshuvah for it, and learned from my experience, then it's OK eventually, right? But isn't it *more* wrong to put shrimp cocktail on my mother's pesach dishes? Now I am purposefully bringing the treif into the path of those that do not want to be a part of it - much like a person finding out that their spouse is having phone sex with someone else. Shouldn't negiah be in word AND deed?

The first option just hurts yourself (and the niddah since she's a willing participant), the other one has the option to cause distress and harm to a loved one. Not being an expert by any means other than paying attention in hebrew school, wouldn't honoring your spouse or other loved ones outweigh misdeeds that only cause harm to yourself?

Just because the rules were written before certain technologies existed, doesn't mean that it's OK to use that as a loophole. (ie - the "rule" written before telephones, ergo there is no actual contact. Might as well eat that shrimp cocktail.)[/quote]


You seem to be saying that it is better to do a small aveirah with one's wife, rather than hurt her by doing a different aveirah with a stranger.

The reason that Chazal made various restrictions is so that one would not start on the slippery slide down to the pit.

It is difficult for people to refrain from forbidden sex, especially if it is with someone that one regularly has permitted sex with (i.e. when one's wife is a nida). By having lesser physical contact with one's wife while she is a nida, it could very easily lead to actual sexual intercourse which carries the ultimate penalty.

That is the reason for all of the extra restrictions between a man and his wife when she is a nida, and it is logical and sensible to refrain.

[emeslyaakov]

[quote="must know"][quote="Kollel Guy"]The first scenario is a passuk in the Torah which forbids any sort of close contact with a niddah under the penalty of malkus, lashes . [/quote]

contact (not intercourse) with a niddah only has a penalty of lashes? don't some hold it is kares? Can you please explain this to me? thanks.[/quote]

Sexual intercourse (vaginal or anal) with an ervah (close relative, someone else's wife, or a woman who is a nida) is punished by careis.

Other physical contact is forbidden by the Torah according to the Rambam and is punishable by (up to) 39 lashes, and is forbidden by the Rabbis according to Ramban.