trying not to sin

[mentchele]

Op. How is it going? did you let go on your cyber lover? Did life with your dh improve?

[guestfaigy]

Havent been here a while!! Just noticed someone just posted. I havent dropped my lover totally. We sometimes chat. Love is not somethng easyly discarded like cloths. It was intense & i still love him but at arms distance.
Now about dh.............. It will never change & I realize that. He is who he is. He is the talmud Chochom & dear hubby who I married. I have changed. Does he have to come down to the "madrayguh" that Id like? So I will live with him, cherish him for what he is & continue to live his way of life. and...........daven that I dont stray!

[interesting]

I am not here to condem or condone...Afterall I am not here to judge.I ,however find it interesting that u consider yourself to LOVE this guy....I wonder if u know the definition of LOVE?I believe if you would LOVE your husband this man would not be in your life......

[S]

If I may share a few thoughts, now that I've read the whole back-story...

I can understand the temptation of meeting someone online. It's an easy way to develop a connection, and get to know someone. I've done it myself, and have actually met people that way. And sometimes, it was wonderful - at least for a little while. But I wish I hadn't. I truly, truly regret it, and wish I could change that part of me. I wish I could rip those experiences out of my mind, and clean my soul.

So I kinda feel like I understand the draw of a relationship - I got involved in those relationships when i was single, with no knowing when I would be married, and with few friends around. I was lonely, and emotionally and sexually, I needed a connection. And I made connections, some of them (at the time) truly wonderful. And even in retrospect, some of the people I met are truly wonderful people.

Looking back, I can clearly say that I was an idiot. And also, although I really did care about these people, I realize now that I was being very, very selfish. Even being alone and single, when done in the right way, I was a lot happier overall than when I was involved in these dead-end relationships. And staying in touch is always a bad idea. Leaving the door open can only lead to pain and hurt. The key is to realize that you're not depriving yourself - you're allowing yourself to truly enjoy life more fully. It may be hard to see things that way, but it is possible.

As far as things in the relationship with your husband, that's complicated. Someone here mentioned R' Pitter, and I've heard good things about him, as well. The key is that you shouldn't worry about him lowering himself for you - the fact is that you have the right to enjoy sex with your husband in every way possible. And doing so would greatly enhance your relationship. It's the way things are supposed to be. R' Volbe refers to the areas of a husband pleasing his wife as "torah sheba'al peh." And a husband should try to limit himself as far as sex, but that's only if his wife doesn't want more. If his wife wants more, he's SUPPOSED to do that.

Oral? Yes, it's very good. And you should look into the halachic ramifications, because again, there are people who might tell you that you can. Keep in mind, also, that a lot of guys just don't like to (crazy, in my opinion - I'm worried that I'm not going to be allowed to, because I really enjoy it). However, someone who's motivated and interested in pleasuring his partner can find lots of other ways to give a LOT of pleasure - get creative!

[S]

One more point - as far as love, that's a very elusive term, and everyone has a slightly different definition for it. Keep in mind, though, that the intense emotion that we feel as we get to know someone, before we've gotten used to them, is probably closer to lust and infatuation. "Falling" in love is mostly that. True love, long-lasting, deep-level love, is when you and your partner give to each other, and share. The love that grows from that giving is far more satisfying than anything else. And even if you married a husband without "falling in love," you can still reach levels of true love that are far better than that - and remember that people who fall in love, usually fall out of love. why? because THAT emotion leaves, and the relationship will only last if you replace it with something real.

[Guest]

There is a column in this week's Jewish Press (April 21, 2010) that speaks to this issue and should SCARE THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS out of every married person -- both those who don't believe that their spouses would ever stray as well as to those who believe that they themselves would never be tempted or succumb to such temptation.

I wanted to link to the column on the Jewish Press website, but it has not yet been posted as of this morning. I will try to remember to check again later and to post it (though anyone else can feel free to do it).

[guestfaigy]

I take all ur comments very much to heart. There is no lesson as profound as lifes experience. Hashem made my life easier this weekend. I went to a chatroom cause I was bored. I chatted with a guy who was very nice. It turned out it was my now-former b/f!! I didnt know, he did. So he got mad & said it was over. It is slowly entering my thick skull how selfish alot of men are!!! Oh! he can come to chatrooms & troll for women but if I showed up then im a traitor!!! Im tired I thnk of this scene!!! Men proffesing deep love but only meaning to satisfy themselves by telling u how cold the wives are!!! So true love is where? In my own bedroom. The man that loves me warts & all!!! Just this week he was discussing Kedoshim. How u can be like an animal & still be kosher. But we should strive to raise ourselves. So how can I get him to do things that are on the borderline of proper Jewish behaviour??? Not going to happen i thnk. So again, i must raise myself to meet his hashkofuh.

[chusid#2]

Hi Feigy

Ive read thru all the threads in amazment, I cant tell you how amazed I am at your koiach and determination.

Knowing myself, had I been in that position I would have fallen thru.
I boruch Hashem was able to teach my wife to have real fun. And I really feel your frustration at not being able to turn your dh around.
It would be wonderful if you could learn with him the Gemoros about how much fun certain Tannaim and Amoraim had in bed, all without deminishing their Kedusha one little bit.
It might be a good idea to look up those sources and discuss them with him. That might not work if hes not willing to be open to ideas new to him.

[Guest]

[quote="chusid#2"]It would be wonderful if you could learn with him the Gemoros about how much fun certain Tannaim and Amoraim had in bed, all without deminishing their Kedusha one little bit.[/quote]

Nu, so which Gemoros?

[Guest770]

Sounds like there's more to it, GuestFaigy, and you were insulted. You'll get over it. And don't forget, you were trolling yourself and you did go on to chat with a guy. But sure, blame the guys and how selfish they are yadda yadda yadda. If you loved him as you say, you would probably be chatting with him!

[S]

Far be it for me to encourage behavior that is less holy, but being machmir at someone else's expense, I don't think the torah wants that. If something is assur, then obviously, you shouldn't do it (and I'll be honest - I need to ask about giving oral, and I really have a fear that I'll be told i can't, and I LOVE doing it. But I know I need to ask anyway).

But if it's not assur, and a man's wife wants it, and his rav tells him he can, then the holiness should be found in giving pleasure to one's spouse - that's where holiness in the relationship is found, not in leaving her deprived.

And in areas that are definitely muttar, then he's totally missing the point - you've really got to take him to a rav that can help him understand! I'm saying this because you shouldn't feel deprived in your own loving relationship, especially as you're coming to the realization of how much you need to focus on your own relationship.

Would he agree to go to a rav about this?

Also, is oral the only thing you want different, or are there other issues?

[chusid#2]

[quote="Guest"][quote="chusid#2"]It would be wonderful if you could learn with him the Gemoros about how much fun certain Tannaim and Amoraim had in bed, all without deminishing their Kedusha one little bit.[/quote]

Nu, so which Gemoros?[/quote]

see brochos 62a about Rav who was both a Tanna and Amora

[guesttoo]

So now that Hashem helped you get passed this, maybe it is a good time to make gedorim for the future. Maybe get rid of your internet... I pray for you to rise and not fall. You are probably making a mistake about your husband. I think if you speak to him openly and tell him what you need he will take it to heart. Wishing you much hatzlocha!

[Guest]

[quote="Guest"]There is a column in this week's Jewish Press (April 21, 2010) that speaks to this issue and should SCARE THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS out of every married person -- both those who don't believe that their spouses would ever stray as well as to those who believe that they themselves would never be tempted or succumb to such temptation.

I wanted to link to the column on the Jewish Press website, but it has not yet been posted as of this morning. I will try to remember to check again later and to post it (though anyone else can feel free to do it).[/quote]

http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/43484/

[Racheli]

Thank you all for your posts.
You have no idea how much it helps others.
I am a mother many times, in my fourties, traveling a lot for my business.
Just last week, I met a frum divorced man and we became friendly.
We are both from the same country and have a lot in common. He was so easy to talk to, and we mainly laughed the whole time like two kids.
To make a long story short, he gave me his phone#, and I became kind of "fascinated" and quickly obsessed.
Of course, it was bothering me as it is not my way. The whole thing was playing in my head and I couldn't figure why. (He is not even my type physically to say the least). I have a good marriage with my husband, good love life, attraction etc..
So why?
I got online and found you all.
I read the whole thread and quickly ran and got ripped his phone number. No more!
I am embarrassed to say but I will admit here (for the benefit of others), that I have been calling him over 10 times a day (Thank Gd he only picked up once and we got disconnected after 2 minutes) and I even (blushing) wrote him a poem!!
Now it is FINISHED - NOT WORTH IT.
It is all in the head at a time we women are vulnerable.
True - the internet brings people closer for the good and for the bad.
In our case here, Feigy and me and many others,this closeness produced a real Kiddush Hashem.
Thank you again for being such caring brothers and sisters.
AM YISROEL CHAI!