Frum dating is driving me crazy...

[anuran]

Mazel Tov, Engaged! With your attitude you and your wife will enjoy a long, loving marriage BH.

Just remember, the need to feel loved, special, protected and desired doesn't end under the chupa. Women need that from their men for the rest of their lives.

[engaged!!!]

[quote="Experienced"]Firstly, Mazel tov "Engaged!" Your Kallah is truly lucky to have found someone as considerate as you make yourself out to be. i wish you many happy years until 120 together.

I am not going to to dissect your response to my post, but most single men and women I know would disagree with some things you wrote.
The small gestures are certainly what will make or break a date, but trust me- if you don't go out of your way to act like a mentch, most people won't stick around for a cold can of coke- or they'll think you're a stalker.
If you read my post correctly you'll see that I wrote that spontaneity is good, but if you lack a rapport and understanding with your date they just won't get it. I also wrote my opinion as guidelines meaning tips in order to have successful dates.
The original poster is a baal tshuva so t I did not say, "wear a blackhatwhiteshirt have a dvar torah prepared, talk about your 3 years in the Mir and first year in Lakewood and take her to the Marriot to sip cokes." I merely said act like a decent human being and girls will want to date you.

Next time read people's posts when your not half asleep or drunk.[/quote]

Wowa!!!

Ok, so firstly, i was not drunk as i never drink. lol

I get the sense that you were or are offended. Possibly, you may feel as i invalidated your post, or i made it out to be false. The truth is, this is an online forum where everyone posts their opinions. Thus, its only fair to say that i am entitled to comfortably say my feelings and view without later being harassed. Although, re-reading the posts, one can say that i may have come off a little hard, and thereby possibly making out your opinion to be nothing.

For all practical purposes, i really hope you were not offended, as after all it is merely an opinion based on my revelations, and experiences. Having dated for a year or two, and going through different experiences, the previous post was just my thoughts and the out come of my dating experience. In no way should that be taken as g-D given truth, as everyone is different. I was merely posting my experience, and my thoughts on the topic, as were u.

[Experienced]

All right no hard feelings- I see your point too
good luck with everything and mazel tov again

[GirlInEurope]

Hi,
I just found this thread. BT guy and I seem to have some things in common. I grew up unobservant, and consider myself a Traditional BT, but I know more about Orthodoxy than most non-Orthodox. I was around Orthodox communities during my undergraduate degree, and plan to wear a full sheitel and keep Taharat Hamischpacha after marriage. I just finished my first year of graduate school in a city where the observant student crowd is dwindling, to put it bluntly, and between my secular, more exotic, academic studies and Traditional Jewish lifestyle, have found it difficult to fit in. I keep tznius, am shomer, and would like a Traditional household one day, but with some elements of Orthodoxy. I've felt like I've had to decide between my field of study and religion, and as much as I also have been told "You can't have it both ways", I would hate to have to make that decision. Both are part of my identity now.

Eerily similar to Bochur, to some sects of Orthodoxy, I'd be considered *very* open minded and would therefore be eliminated as a prospective Shidduch based on that alone. Additionally, the type of guys who might be interested in me wouldn't really understand the tznius thing, though I have a small group of friends (guys and girls) who seem to like me all right as I am now.

I thought I was the only one like this. Glad to know there are others like this.

What do you think?

-GirlInEurope
PS: I don't have much experience with secular dating, so would look forward to a Shidduch, but how do you talk about non-Frum centric questions? That's not my world. Trying to find a nice balance between being observant and my studies.

[S]

It sounds like you've found a balance that makes you comfortable. Can I ask what difference you would see between your household being orthodox, and "traditional?"

[GirlInEurope]

S,
I suppose since I'm not FFB and in the modern world, pursuing secular, academic studies, that's why I wouldn't say I'd necessarily have an Orthodox household. Though if I were to have one as such, it would be very Modern Orthodox.
-GirlInEurope

[GirlInEurope]

PS to S:
Yes, I am comfortable with where I am now. Too bad I'm either too observant or too liberal for most. :-/

[S]

It could be that I'm missing something that you're implying. From what you're saying, the problem is that 1) you're not born frum, 2) pursuing "secular" studies?

Depending on your particular approach to judaism, the fact that you're a BT might worry some, because they might be concerned about your level of commitment. But really, it doesn't sound like you're looking for that type of guy anyway.

And since when is pursuing secular studies a problem?

And now, a rather blunt question - Do you consider yourself someone that follows halacha in general, or do you follow the things that appeal to you?

[GirlInEurope]

Hi S,
Yes, it's true I'm not FFB and that I'm pursuing "secular" studies, in the Humanities, and not doing anything Jewish related.
I'm gonna go a bit out of order answering/commenting, so bear with me!

It's not that "Secular" studies might necessarily be the issue, but "what" I'm studying. Most Jewish students on campus, either here or the US, study Business, Psych(ology), or Jewish Studies (Hebrew is a given). I've met Music students, Law students, even Science-y people. But not many who are into less-commonly studied languages. Once someone hears I'm not only NOT studying Spanish, French, German, or Latin; In my experience, with grads and undergrads, most don't really know how to respond, beyond "Oh, that's interesting," and then the conversation dies unless they're interested in it at all (and that number I can count on one hand).

Let's see, Yes, the BT thing. Guess I'll have to live with it, I suppose. Although, running with what you wrote for a second (and to clarify for myself): Yes, I consider a BT and I know that's concerning to FFB families because of my commitment to an observant lifestyle, but it doesn't sound like I'd want the FFB type anyway? Yes, that's true. I might not. It's not my world. I suppose I'd consider an FFB but I don't know how likely that is to happen. I don't know if we'd have many things in common. On the other hand, how many non-Orthodox guys will be up for usually-only-Orthodox marital customs? :-/

Your blunt question is fine. My answer would be 'a mix of both'. ::pauses:: Hmm, guess that takes me out of the 'Orthodox' category, then.

[S]

It sounds like you're a complex mix - which is fine. I might suggest that you might be a bit of a work-in progress - meaning, that as you learn more, you might find yourself interested in following more. Or not - that'll be your choice.

Some guys get weirded out by things that are different. A lot of guys aren't - although, they might just not be sure what to say. An uncommon language is something that a lot of people don't really have much to say about, other than possibly, "so, what made you interested in learning that?"

And that's OK (I think) - as long as the two of you can find other things to talk about. I don't think guys HAVE to know what to respond, as long as they can accept that it's something YOU'RE interested in, and respect that.

I would caution you about marrying an FFB, or a guy who's more observant, simply because while you may be stable, or on your way up, observance-wise, he might (although not necessarily) be interested in you because he's on his way down - so, while your paths intersect right now, you might be headed in totally different directions in life. I don't think that would work out well for either of you.

As far as whether or not you're "orthodox" - again, I think it might be borderline. But it might be worth more research, and figuring out where you want to go may help you find a guy in a similar situation more easily.

[Guest]

[quote="GirlInEurope"]Your blunt question is fine. My answer would be 'a mix of both'. ::pauses:: Hmm, guess that takes me out of the 'Orthodox' category, then.[/quote]

I'm not sure why you think that. If you currently keep halacha -- and especially the 3 "big" ones: Kashrus, Shabbos & (when the time comes) Taharas Hamishpacha -- you are "Frum" or "Orthodox". The fact that you were not always frum does nothing more than address your past. Yes, you are a BT, and I know many FFB's who married BT's. I also know many BT's who married other BT's. I don't see why you should feel forced to compromise yourself by considering marrying someone who is currently not frum. That would only pose a risk to your continued observance.

As far as your major in college, unless you are studying Christian Theology, I can't for the life of me see how that has *ANY* bearing whatsoever on your level of Yiddishkeit nor on the level of Yiddishkeit of your future spouse. Yes, people may look at you funny because you are not studying the "traditional" courses. Well I think that just makes you -- YOU. In college, I studied something different in the OTHER direction -- Mathematics. Yes, people looked at me funny ("What, you don't want you be an accountant?") But G-d has B"H allowed me to turn it into parnassah for my family, and today -- 20 years later -- no one cares. And my wife not only thought that studying something "unusual" was cool, she thought that ALL my "unusual" hobbies and interests (i.e., they were off the beaten path of "standard" FFBs) made me all the more attractive.

Oh, and my wife and I are FFB's.

Be true to yourself and halacha and don't let anyone else define you. All the best, kol tuv, and much hatzlacha. Your bashert is out here and when you will find him you will see how being YOU makes you PERFECT for him.